Continuing Trouble Operating across Sub-divisions | Operations | Forum

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Continuing Trouble Operating across Sub-divisions
July 20, 2017
10:45 am
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Peter Jackson
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Greetings

I continue to have problems operating across subdivisions.  My layout consists of a main which is West staging, main yard, secondary yard and switching district, and East staging.  I have three subdivisions, two of which have the secondary yard (Quinte) as the junction point and the third which has a named station (basically a turnout from the main to staging).

Peterborough sub is north of Quinte and ends in staging.  Corbyville sub is south of Quinte, has two switching locations, Canifton and Corbyville and uses a CBY-02y to turn.  Canifton has two industries one trailing and one facing.  Corbyville has multiple industries both trailing and facing.  CBY-02y is too short to allow set-offs.  The turn is by run around.

All industries have the correct switching trains and the trailing/facing point information set properly.  My track schematic clearly shows Canifton north of Corbyville.

A turn leaves Peterborough staging and goes to Quinte where it should set out cars for the mainline and pick up cars for Corbyville sub.  The first problem starts here.  The train is often assigned cars to return to Peterborough at this time. Previously I have solved this problem by putting nominal staging at Quinte, dropping all the cars at Quinte and entering staging.  Exiting staging and retrieving the correct cars, leaving the Peterborough bound cars for the return leg.  This is cumbersome and doesn't solve the next problem.

Cars for Canifton and Corbyville are assigned to the train by "yardmaster route" but cars going to the trailing point industry in Canifton show the next location as CBY-02y. When I report CBY-02y all these cars are now re-routed back to Quinte.  Loaded cars in Canifton ready for pick up are never picked up.  It seems like the trailing point destination for Canifton is ignored but after the turn it is recognized because it doesn't try to collect these cars on the way back.

This occurs whether I am using Alternate Train Symbols or two separate trains.  Since Query Car Status does not permit making the next location an industry I cannot move the cars there on the train list.

I'm using the latest version 355.  Any help would very much be appreciated.

Peter Jackson

July 20, 2017
2:48 pm
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Jim Moir
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Peter,

>A turn leaves Peterborough staging and goes to Quinte 

Please have a look at the article (on the website) by Joe Brann about "Routing through staging".   

Second, do you have a reporting point at Canifton?

           Jim

July 20, 2017
4:37 pm
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Jim Moir
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Further to the above.   See page 5-14 in the Basics Manual.   Or page 51 in the Recipe Book.

Cars are setoff/picked-up at a customer only if the customer is in the current reporting zone (the trackage between any two of a train's reporting points).   A staging track cannot be one of the reporting points.

A "switching zone" (as Doug calls it) can extend between any two stations on any subdivision .... provided each of the stations has a train reporting point for the service train.

Thus, in the example above, there is a switching zone between Quinte and Corbyville - but (if there is no reporting point at Canifton) there cannot be a switching zone beyond Corbyville.   And no cars will be picked up or setoff beyond Corbyville.

~~~

The solution is straightforward - create a train reporting point at Canifton or just outside of staging if there are customers beyond Canifton.

OK?

                 Jim

July 21, 2017
4:09 pm
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Peter Jackson
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Thanks for the prompt reply Jim

The schematic is Quinte (the junction station and a YD reporting point), Canifton (a switching zone) then Corbyville a switching zone and a reporting point CBY-02y where the train turns by the engine running around the train.  The facing point switches in the Corbyville switching zone are then worked and the train moves to Canifton for the facing point switches there, then returns to Quinte which is a reporting point.

It seems to me that that should work and it has worked in the past. 

What I don't understand is when I query a car in the train at Quinte, it shows Train 312, Next Yard Corbyville, destination Canifton CAN-04b which is a trailing point switch prior to getting to Corbyville.

After I report the train at CBY-02y, query car gives me Train 313, QTY-Yd, CAN-04b.  Cars that are supposed to be switched at CAN-03 show Train 313, QTY-Yd, CAN-03.  So no switching is being done in Canifton.

Is it possible that, even though Quinte is shown as the junction station, it is not being recognized as a reporting point on this sub?

Thanks for your help.  I'll have another ;look at Joe's article.

Cheers

Peter

July 21, 2017
5:28 pm
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Jim Brewer
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Peter,

Are you double reporting the train at the turn point? Just a thought.

Jim Brewer

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 5:09 PM, ProTrak.org wrote:

>

July 22, 2017
11:09 pm
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Peter Jackson
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Hi Jim

Yes I am, and I run the "yardmaster route" routine between the double reporting.

The problem is occurring before I get to the turn point as well as afterwards.

Thanks for the reply

Peter Jackson

July 24, 2017
10:29 am
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Peter Jackson
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Yesterday I tried inserting a reporting point between Quinte and Canifton.  Didn't seem to make any difference.

Peter Jackson

July 24, 2017
2:55 pm
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Jim Moir
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Peter, 

Please try the Update 356 just posted.

There was an issue with (the new code for) updating the transit time for waybills.   I ran into the same issue on Saturday's operating session here.

              Jim

July 31, 2017
10:48 am
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Peter Jackson
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Thanks Jim

Update 356 didn't make any difference but I only have 2 YDs so maybe that is why.

I'm now trying to run one train in Peterborough subdivision that terminates in Quinte staging (a logical concept only) then exits as a different train in Corbyville subdivision which turns at Cby-02y and terminates in Quinte staging to emerge as the return train to Peterborough.  I've been dumping all the cars in QTE-Yd before staging and picking them up on the new train after leaving staging.

I thought about trying Joe's approach but it seemed that the dedicated staging he recommends would be in Peterborough subdivision and that would defeat the purpose.

First try looks encouraging but it is a lot of work changing all the customer/switching train relationships and I've only done the one trial so far and I've ran into some extremely long unloading times (480 hours) so I've left it for a bit.

 

Cheers

Peter

July 31, 2017
12:06 pm
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Jim Moir
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Peter,

1.   The correction in 356 that affected you had to do with "waybills" (being updated with a car movement.  Opening and closing a file to be specific.)  

(Yards ands the number of yards has nothing to do with it.  That was another issue for someone else.)

Also, the issue you had had nothing to do whatsoever with "across subdivisions".

~~~

2.  "I've ran into some extremely long unloading times (480 hours) "

Could you please explain?   I do not have a clue as to what you are talking about?

Thanks,

                   Jim

August 2, 2017
6:04 pm
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Peter Jackson
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1.  I obviously misunderstood your explanation but as I said, I did not notice any difference after downloading 356.  While my issue may not have had anything to do with "across subdivisions" that was the only thing that I noticed that was different between my way freights that seemed to be working and those that didn't.

2.  I previously completed the session I was running and did a daily summary.  However,  I just checked Edit/show/show cars at customers and of the 7 cars at QTE-07, 3 are showing 1m under the Hrs column but when I Query Car they show "Time remaining loading/unloading" as 199 hrs.  Two show 2m but query car shows 4 hours, one shows a BoL, no time and query shows "Time remaining loading/unloading" as none (as expected) but the last one shows no BoL, that the car is empty and the Hrs column is blank.  Query this car and it shows car is empty, waybill is 0 and the "Time remaining loading/unloading" as none.  But all paper cars at this location should be empty for loading.

Before completing the last session these cars were showing 480 hours remaining loading/unloading.  That's what I was trying to explain.

Cheers

 

Peter

August 5, 2017
6:28 am
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Jim Moir
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Peter,

>these cars were showing 480 hours remaining loading/unloading

The program codes unloading times, with a maximum of 120 hours.  However times in minutes are coded as over 300, so a time shown as 480 a) should never be seen, and b) implies a loading time of 180 minutes.

The display at Exceptions/Show cars at Zones had an error, which I found using your data.   I have corrected it and will post an Update later today.

Thanks for pointing out this issue,

             Jim

August 5, 2017
6:59 am
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Jim Moir
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Peter,

(Note 2 of 2.  Please see 1 above.)

>Canifton (a switching zone) then Corbyville a switching zone and a reporting point CBY-02y where the train turns by the engine running around the train.  The facing point switches in the Corbyville switching zone are then worked and the train moves to Canifton for the facing point switches there, then returns to Quinte which is a reporting point.
It seems to me that that should work and it has worked in the past. 

Using your data, which may be out-of-date, I think I see the issues.   Interconnected.   Some program, some data.   I will be posting an Update later today so please wait until that is posted.

1.  The data here is using "Work and train capacity at each yard" option.   Train 312/313 is set to have a maximum of 9 cars.  However the "work" option is set to a maximum train-length of 6 cars between each yard.   The maximum train length allowed will be 6 cars.

2.  The turning point for 312/313 is a "y" yard-track, set to "No blocking allowed".

3.  There are 23 cars assigned to the train, with 4 in-train and 2 pickups.  Which is correct. (The car pickup routines are working and assigning cars to the train.)  The other 17 cars are "extra" including all the pickups at CAN and at CBY (and later pickups at QTE Yd).  

The CAN and CBY pickups are "buried down" below the QTE (in the order that the cars were assigned to the train).  Normally, at a Yd yard, the train-blocking routines, would move those CAN/CBY cars "up" above the "QTE" and show them as pickups (not extras).  If the train was "long" enough.

4.  However the "y" setting of "no-blocking" is stopping the train-blocking routines from re-blocking the trains, which would move the CAN/CBY cars "up" to be pickups.

That make sense?

Also there is an interaction here with the customers being facing-point to be worked on the return leg, after turning.                          

And I can see why you have chosen "no blocking" at the turning point.

So what I have done is changed (in the program) how the blocking-routines handle a "y" track (with no-blocking), which is a turning point for a local service train.   The program now moves those CAN/CBY cars "up" to be pickups.  And the facing-point customers are worked.

But, in the data here, I also made the train "longer", by cars, feet and tons and made the "work" settings consistent with the train-length settings.

Again, without your data, none of these complicated interactions would be understood.   Thanks.

            Jim

August 5, 2017
10:36 pm
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Peter Jackson
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Thanks for this Jim

It has been driving me crazy.  The 6 car train length was added to suit the run around capabilities at Corbyville.

I'm off tomorrow on a 3 week vacation in England with my wife and 12 year old granddaughter but I'm looking forward to trying this out when I get back.

Cheers

Peter

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