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6:24 pm
April 26, 2015
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I have a farm store customer (LJ-22) on a stub branch line off of my main line. It is impossible to service this customer with a train approaching the branch line turnout from the facing point. When I set up ProTrak years and years ago I sort just automatically selected the first switching option, namely "Trailing Point point switch, or service in either direction", for all of my customers. The LJ-22 customer is listed as being serviced by my Newberry turn NBT-3/4 which runs out of my main yard. In my OP session Monday afternoon the NBT-3 switch list called for the impossible-to do pickup of a car at LJ-22. So I decided to change the switching option to "Facing Point point switch, switched by the turn on return trip". The 2-nd part of that statement really piqued by interest, so I made that switching direction change for LJ-22 with high hopes that the pick ups and set outs for LJ-22 would be listed only on the NBT-4 switch list. I've now run 6 paper sessions and see no movement of the pick ups and set outs from the NBT-3 switch list to the NBT-4 switch list. I'm running Ver 348. Has anybody else run into this situation where they changed the switching option for a customer and found that it had no effect?
thanks
Joe Brann
6:56 pm
April 26, 2015
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Joe,
I also have a facing point customer that I need to have switched by the return leg of my GYRA - RAGY turn. MY customer is listed as facing point and is in the last station/switching zone before terminating at my GYD-yd yard and its station is not a reporting point.
My customer switches properly however it is last priority in assignment to the train (nothing I set but works that way). This means if any other customer needs space in the train this one gets pushed into extra status. Pickups seem to be affected more than setouts. This is the worst served customer on my layout and yes it has taken 4-6 runs of my turn to get a car picked up an another set out. (Not sessions as I sometimes run a second call for my turn in one session if traffic seems to be backed up.)
Hope this helps,
John
8:10 am
April 26, 2015
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Thanks John,
While I was on the porcelain throne this morning I got the idea of switching the order of the stations for LJ-22 and for my Newberry yard. They are listed right next to each other on the Railroad / Station on Williamsport screen, and since I do not do tractive modelling I don't suspect that switch will have any effect other than hopefully putting the service at LJ-22 on the Newberry turn (NBT-4) return train switch list. That switch in my station order seems like it would make my situation similar to what you have. I'll try this later today.
Joe Brann
12:14 pm
April 26, 2015
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After running several totally unsuccessful paper sessions implementing the station order switch I mentioned last Thursday, I must admit that switching the order of the stations for the Loch Haven branch line servicing LJ-22 and for the branch line up to the Newberry yard was a super dumb idea. What I did was to put the Loch Haven station one station down the station order list from the Newberry branch line station, which is a turning point. This meant that when ProTrak was proceeding in station order it never saw the Loch Haven branch line station after the train turned at Newberry.
John, it's interesting that you have your facing point customer apparently just before your yard. Mine is one station back toward the main yard from the Newberry turning point. You commented that you do not have a reporting point for that facing point customer. That was an idea I was toying with implementing in some paper sessions.
Any more ideas on how to get a facing point customer serviced by the return train of a turn would be appreciated. Or does anybody know if there is a user option control bit that needs to be selected so that the customer switching option of "........switched by the return train of a turn" actually occurs.
Joe in Orlando
1:52 pm
April 26, 2015
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PTBM Appendix L to the rescue. After I finished my above post I opened up App. L and searched on "Facing point" and sure enuf in Question C7 there is an answer to my inquiry wrt a user control bit. That user control bit is under Transportation / Today's Operating Condition / at the bottom of the Today's Operating Condition screen in the Switching Panel. The radio button for "for facing points on return only" needs to be selected. The details in the answer to question C7 discuss how this control bit interacts with the switching control bit associated with each customer and only applies to turns. I'll run some paper sessions with my stations in the correct order and will report back her is a few days.
Joe in Orlando
4:34 pm
April 26, 2015
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Joe,
Glad you found that.Let us know if thing work now.
Also note that under File->ProTrak Program Options there is a ckeckbox for 'For turn-jobs, show only pickup cars for present "leg" of Job'. I have this checked and did so early in my turn setup process (at least I think so).
Best,
John
8:15 am
April 26, 2015
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Thanks John,
I was not aware of the option bit you referenced.
In the paper sessions I've run the last several days with the "for facing points on return only" option bit on the Today's Operating conditions screen selected I've had pretty good and consistent success with getting set outs made by the return turn trains done properly. But wrt pick ups it's been a mixed bag. Most of the time in order to get pickups done I need to double report the return turn train at it's turning reporting point. With that bit selected as you stated do you then have to double report your turns at the turning reporting point?
Joe Brann
5:58 pm
April 26, 2015
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Joe,
Double reporting is never was a seperate factor for any of my facing point industries.
However it does affect setouts and pickups at both facing and trailing point industries.
As I run solo sessions I always check to see if all expected pickups occurred and if not then double report.
Also I do not think there is ever a problem with just always double reporting.
I forgot to mention my turn actually serves 4 facing point customers passing through stations as follows:
zone/sta rept pt. # cust. # facing pt
Gst-yd yes 0 origin
GST no 0 This is my branchline junction point
CCR no 1 1 switched on return leg (customer I previously mentioned)
MGV no 2 2 1 is an interchange track
ZKY no 2 0
RAC yes, turn pt 8 1 1 is interchange track and is the reporting point
ZKY no 2 0 were switched on outbound leg
MGV yes 2 2 interchange is rpt pt, both now trailing are switched
CCR no 1 1 is now trailing and switched
GST no 0
GST-yd yes 0 termination
I have never seen any effect on service based on facing vs trailing point status. The facing point customer at RAC seems to switch as muchas any other there. I added the reporting point at MGV on the return leg as occasionally double reporting seemed to help there. I do not remember double reporting at CCR making a difference there. For me the issue seems to be solely train length limits and how ProTrack determines if there is space at the customer spot. It seems to me that ProTrak has an issue with a train that is less than a carlength from over length can pick up one car and set out a different car and never be overlength, so 1 train must do the pickup and the next the setout. Unfortunately the further down the train's schedule the less likely for the train to have length for the pickup.
Hope this helps,
John
8:09 am
April 28, 2015
Offline
9
I always thought that turns were supposed to be double reported; is this correct?
Jim Brewer
On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 6:59 PM ProTrak.org wrote:
>
8:31 am
April 26, 2015
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John and Jim,
I did some more reading of PTBM App. L the other day searching on "Facing". There is a lot of text in App. L concerning switching facing point customers with a turn train. What struck me between the eyes was how often Jim M wrote for the need to click on "Yardmaster / Route cars" at a turning point. All the entries in App. L are undated so I do not know when Jim made these multiple comments; nor what version of ProTrak was the most recent at the time of his posting. BUT I kinda remember that after many postings by Jim of the need to click on "Yardmaster / Route cars" at a turn that he made some changes in ProTrak effectively doing the functionality of a user clicking in "Yardmaster / Route Car" internally in ProTrak. Does anybody recall anything along that line? Some of you are younger than I am, and I'm sure that will help !
I'm not ready to pronounce success, but in the 4 or 5 paper sessions I ran yesterday and clicking on "Yardmaster / Route Cars" at the turning point I found that all the pick ups and set outs at LJ-22 (my facing point customer) were handled successfully. I'll try to run more in a day or so.
Jim, wrt always double reporting a train at a turn I sure wish I knew a firm answer to that question. I have done it in the past (i.e. outside of my current paper study on switching a facing point customer) particularly when the train list still shows a "+" for a customer at my turning point zone.
Does anybody know what functional difference there is in ProTrak between 1) Double reporting a turn at the turning point and 2) clicking on "Yardmaster / Route Cars"?
Joe Brann
8:46 am
May 11, 2015
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11
That is what Jim M always told me, Jim. Always double report but only at the turning point. Best, AndyÂ
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 9:09 AM, ProTrak.org wrote:
Best, Andy Keeney
Look out for #1 but don't step in #2!!
12:08 pm
April 26, 2015
Offline
Hi all,
I remember Jim adding times that ProTrak would automatically execute the 'route cars' routines and possibly other 'housekeeping' actions. By dropping back to 348 we may not have all those automatics. As I recall there is never an issue with running the yardmaster - route cars. It would be necessary to do so between the double reports and ensure the train is not closed.
Best,
John
11:04 am
April 26, 2015
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Friends, a week or so ago I promised to post the results of my paper study wrt getting my facing point customer LJ-22 to be serviced on the return leg of a turn train. I recently finished 10 paper sessions ( I can do this fairly easily on my small SVL railroad) and I can pleasantly report complete success in having LJ-22 service only by NBT-4. No service was given to LJ-22 by the outgoing train NBT-3.
For the record here are the 4 things I did to achieve this.
1. File / ProTrak options, Housekeeping in the Train-consist report panel on the Operation Mode screen click on "For turn-jobs, show only pickup cars for the present "leg" of the job"
2. Transportation / Today's Operating Conditions in the Switching panel of the Today's Operating Conditions screen click the "for facing points on return path" radio button
3. Traffic / Customers on the Customers and Loading Point screen click on the LJ-22 (i.e. my facing point customer) and on the Changing customer X of Y screen click on the "Facing point switch, switched by turn on return trip" radio button
4. At the turning point for the NBT-3/4 train I clicked on Yardmaster / Route cars in yards and customers.
Since I'm still unsure of there is any difference between double reporting a train its turning point and clicking on Yardmaster Route ... when a train is at its turning point I intend to do another 10 or so paper sessions and this time instead of clicking on Yardmaster / Route cars ... I'll double report the train at its turning point.
Joe Brann
8:31 am
April 26, 2015
Offline
Forgot one thing -- BIG thanks to John Valle for all of his very helpful input especially in finding all the subtle places in ProTrak where user options had to be selected in order to have a facing point customer served by the return leg of a turn train.
Joe Brann
1:04 am
April 26, 2015
Offline
Joe and all,
Thanks for the kind words. I too appreciate all you and the others have done to evaluate the current version options. It is good to see Jim's legacy of not just ProTrak but the community it fostered is alive and well. While I have not been running trains very much, I always read all postings here.
Best to all,
John Valle
10:50 am
April 26, 2015
Offline
As a followup to my October 27-th posting above I've just completed 2 10-paper session experiments.
In the first experiment I double reported the NBT-3/NBT-4 turn at the Newberry turning point. Similar to the results from my Oct 27- posting I also got "complete success in having LJ-22 serviced only by NBT-4. No service was given to LJ-22 by the outgoing train NBT-3." Interestingly in several, but not all, of the paper session when there was a car to be picked up at LJ-22 the car was only listed as a pickup only on the NBT-4 switch list.
In my 2-nd experiment I did NEITHER Yardmaster / Route car nor double report cars at the turn point (yes I know this is kinda an anathema) but again I got "complete success in having LJ-22 serviced only by NBT-4. No service was given to LJ-22 by the outgoing train NBT-3."
So clearly when setting up a facing point customer the first THREE things I listed on my Oct 27-th posting are necessary to do in order to have the customer serviced by the return leg of a turn. Beyond that I'm not sure if there is a benefit of double reporting or clicking on Yardmaster / Route cars at the turning point.
Joe Brann
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